Katy Leeson - The Success Paradox: Thrive despite imposter syndrome

Hey, it's Dawn McGruer, the Business Growth Coach, and welcome to Dawn of a New Era, the podcast where we talk all things health, wealth and happiness, and where founders share the good, the bad and ugly of being an entrepreneur. Welcome to the Dawn of a New Era podcast on the private island, and it has been a magical past few days, and also the first time that we've met in real life. So we have got the amazing Katie Leeson on today's podcast, and I think one of the things that is so important to share, and I love to share how we met. So it turns out that we have common connections, and I've been following you on LinkedIn for a while.

And for those that don't know, Katie's history is very diverse in terms of what she's done, but she's got an amazing story, and the great news is she's going to share it with us. So we met on a Zoom call, and I'm trying to think exactly how that came about. I think I'd messaged you on Instagram, and then we decided to have a chat. We felt that there was a common bond, and obviously we're both passionate about dogs, and you have Fozzy, and I have Paddy and Murphy.

So I invited you, obviously, to come on my podcast, and you agreed to not only come on the podcast, but to come to a private island in the middle of Oxfordshire and also speak at my event. So introduce yourself. Tell us a little bit about you. I'm sure lots of people have been following you and know a little bit about your history, but tell us a little bit about Katie.

I will. So thank you so much, honestly. This last couple of days as well has been amazing. I've loved it with the women and the group, and I'm so excited to do this podcast with you.

Yeah, my name's Katie Leeson, and I am... I don't know how to announce myself now because I'm in a bit of a transition. You're in the growth stage, the new business, exciting consultancy, mentoring. Yeah, consultant and mentor, all around, similar to you around growth.

And the reason for that is because my career has all been around growth, whether that's been fast business growth, or whether that's been creating fan base growth or community growth. So yeah, I've kind of moved into that world where I want to now share all of my experience to help. Help other people who are going through a similar sort of thing. And I love talking to you about it because I started my first business at 21.

It's not all been sunshine and rainbows. It's been a turbulent time. And I think what's nice is that you've worked in some of the most amazing businesses, and some of you who know Katie Leeson will know that Katie worked in Social Chain, which is kind of like the one business that we kind of know because it was so fast-paced. It sounded so much fun.

It was exciting. Stephen Bartlett was heading it up. We're going to have to open up and share a little bit about this. So how old were you when you started Social Chain, and kind of share with us how it even occurred.

How did you get into that amazing business? I started in marketing straight out of uni, and I was in very traditional media. So I was buying press, radio, and outdoor space, and I loved it. Honestly, you know when you think about not having to work a day in your life because you love it?

That's what I was like. Never got the Sunday scaries. But I've always been that person to kind of push myself. If I've stopped learning, I get an itch, and I call it my comfy slippers.

I had my comfy slippers on, so I knew I needed something else. And I moved from doing that buying into moving into a new business and marketing role within MediaCom, and I did that for a while. And there I learned all about how businesses were formed, how they created money, all the contracts, all that sort of stuff, the commercial side of it. And I always knew, though, that I didn't have digital in my skill set, and I knew the way the world was moving.

And I thought, if I don't do this, I'm not going to future-proof myself. I'm going to get left behind. And Social Chain wasn't really well known at the time. Steve started following me on Twitter.

I love the fact you call him Steve. Like, we all know him as Steven, but of course, you know. I know, it comes out, and I probably should full-title him, shouldn't I? Steven.

But yeah, he started following me on Twitter, and I looked at what they were doing, and they'd just done some really exciting guerrilla... Activations in Manchester and the social and everything they were doing just seemed like it was fun. And I was kind of craving that in Manchester. I think there was a lot in London, and I was at that sort of pivotal point in my career where I could have gone to London to, like, to move forward, but I was craving staying.

I'm a bit of a homebird. I like being near my parents. Far enough away so my mum can't just walk in the house, but I like being close. And I was looking for something, and I thought, this is quite exciting.

It was purely because I wanted to learn about digital. So I reached out and I said, You've got a couple of roles. Can we have a chat? We talked, and I talked to the leadership team for a good few months, and then they offered me ops director.

And I was, I think I was 31, 32, but the average age was 22. I was going to say, you're like ancient. You're like— They all said the old lady is coming in to ruin the fun. I love it.

I'm not old. I'm not old. I'm 45 now, Katie. I'm like 45.

I don't feel old now. I still feel like I'm like a young girl running around doing what I want. Yeah, so I went in as ops director, and I did that, and I helped them with their structure, a lot from what I'd learned in that new business and marketing role, how to commercialize it better, how to structure the agency, the types of clients that we wanted and the way we wanted to work. And then six months in, Stephen decided he was going to go and set up in New York and needed someone to run the UK operation.

So I interviewed and was made managing director. I mean, what does that even feel like? I mean, like, wow. Like, that's huge.

It was huge. I did the interview, and I thought I'd done it terribly, and I cried after it. I sat in Cafe Nero and I cried. I love it.

We all have perceptions, don't we, how things went. I remember doing a stage speaking presentation and thinking, Oh my God, it was disastrous. It was one of the best things I've ever done, and ended in, like, you know, a round of applause, standing ovation. So you cried.

How did you get the announcement? Did he tell you? It was actually really lovely. I've not actually talked about this.

So, yeah, I cried in Cafe Nero, and then a couple of days after, I was going, I was pulled up outside. I remember exactly where I was. I was outside my great auntie's house waiting to go in, and I got an email, and it was the nicest email about myself that I've ever read from Steve, that was like, There's no one else that could take this job, and it was all about my care, the way that he knew that I would look after the team. Yeah, it was the nicest thing.

I should have kept it, and I didn't. So one of the things I know that he shared a lot on events and things like that and on podcasts is he has really gone in to share the value of how Social Chain grew, and that really that that was all to do with the team that you formed. What was the difference in terms of, like, what made it special in terms of the people you brought together, and why was Social Chain so special? Because there'll be people, you know, listening to this who maybe don't know the ins and outs of what Social Chain was and why it was so unique.

It was just such an exciting place to be, and I think that was because it was a group of young, passionate people who wanted to do really good work, and we were all on the same mission, and that's what made it work. It was, like, so fun every day. Something was going to happen. I remember in my first week, having done new business for an agency and having to bang on doors trying to get into anyone, and in my first week, I went down to London with Steve, and we were at Coca-Cola, Apple, New Look.

I can't remember where, there was a few others, and I was like, These are the biggest brands in the world, and I've just walked in the door in the first week, and I knew then that there was something special about that place. There's just something, like, you can't... I don't know if you could recreate that, to be honest. There was just a buzz, and we just went with the motivation and the motion that happened.

But the team, really, the common denominator, we were all very different. A lot of the original team were all created as social natives. They were kids in their bedroom that started pages of influence on Twitter. They just knew social.

They knew exactly what to do. And I think where I managed to get it right is that I didn't try and come in and change that. I let them teach me how to do it because part of me and part of my values is learning. So I was just obsessed with understanding how they'd done it and then matching that up with people that I've worked with in the past that I loved working with, and I knew that I'd enjoy having working time with.

And my director's team was very much that. It was people that I'd worked with at MediaCom, and I loved it. And it was just a group of people who were really passionate about the company, the work. They just cared.

We all cared. So seeing the, like, how fast Social Chain actually grew, we all assume from the outside that you all had your shit together and that all the processes are, you know, running smoothly. But you told me something yesterday about a telephone. Please share that story.

We so did not have our shit together. It was honestly like every day was a learning. It was like every day was a new day. We were so fortunate.

We never had to do any outbound new business because the notoriety and the work we were doing spoke for itself. So one day I was sat in the office and I turned around and behind me was the phone, and I looked and the phone wasn't plugged in. I was like, Excuse me, team, the phone's not plugged in here. And then we plugged it in and literally not—

Long after plugging that phone in, the phone rang. We answered it. It was Mercedes Benz. And I was just sat there thinking, dear God, I wonder what else we've missed by not having this phone plugged in.

There was little things like that, that we were just running at such speed. It's craziness, isn't it? And I think that is like, that's part of the fun. And when I remember, like looking at Social Chain, it was the agency.

And what was unique is the agency wasn't in London. And that was like, it was like the Northwest, and it was the positioner that digital and agencies had. So I'll remember that forever. One of the reasons, obviously, I reached out to you was I'd listened to your podcast, which I love.

And one of the things that really resonated with me and that I've experienced was imposter syndrome. And I truly believe that, you know, 70%, if not more, people have experienced it. I'm not sure you ever get over it, but I've learned to deal with it. And when I got my publishing contract, I really struggled with the fact that everyone was, like, celebrating this.

And when I handed in my manuscript, I was like, What if no one buys it? You know, I mean, all of these things go through your mind, and then, you know, then it hits bestseller and all of the things happen. But when you got that MD job, what was that like in terms of, like, the mental struggle? Horrendous.

Because if you think I went into that job to learn, I went into that company to learn about digital. And six months into learning about digital, which is quite a big, like a lot to learn, I was running the company. And I didn't know how to cope with it. I just was putting so much pressure on myself as I am leading these people, but I don't have a clue what we do.

I love it. I love it. And I'm brutally honest about that as well. And it took me a while.

I used to, I remember just sitting in meetings hiding, like we'd be in client meetings and I thought, I'm not going to say anything because I'm going to say something that's going to embarrass the name Social Chain. And I felt like I was the name Social Chain. I was representing the name Social Chain, and I was representing Steve. And I thought if I say something wrong, that's it.

I've ruined it. I've wrecked the— the whole thing's going to fall down. I love how dramatic we can be. Oh, I know.

This is it. I'm going to break it. And I was very fortunate because the culture that we built— Had lots of elements to it that helped people. And one of the things, one of the benefits we had was a therapist.

And I think I was talking to Steve about it, and he said, Go and see the therapist. Go and see what she says. So I went. I was also going through a breakup at the time, so my head was all over.

You imagine getting the biggest job of your life, but also, like, losing a six-year relationship at the same time. So my head was scrambled, and it was, like, completely out the blue to me that as well. So went to see the therapist, Karen, forever grateful to Karen. She asked me—she was asking me questions about the role, and she said, What do you think of when you think of a managing director?

And I just sat there and I was like, An old man in a grey suit, sat in a corner. She just looked at me. She went, Yeah, but you're not that, are you? And I was like, No.

And that's where the disconnect is, yeah. And that's where the imposter syndrome was, is my expectations of what I thought a managing director was and what the reality was of who I am. But she helped me break down what my skills were and why they gave me that role. Because even when Steve sent me that lovely email, I didn't believe it.

I just thought, This is just madness. And then I really leant into the things that I knew that I could do to make change. And when you shared the numbers with me, like yesterday, you were talking at the event and you were our guest speaker, which was fabulous. But what were the numbers?

Like, where did you take the agency to? Because this is mind-blowing. Yeah. So the agency part, my part, was when I started there, it was two million in revenue.

And obviously, being a startup, it wasn't making profit. And then when I left—well, there was 30 people as well at that point, about 30. When I left, it was 130 people, about 15 million in revenue. It doesn't seem real.

And we were very healthy profit-making. It was amazing, isn't it? And it's so inspiring because even in that time, women still were not leading in the digital space. I've worked in digital a long time and been passionate about bridging the skills gap, passionate about the gender pay gap.

If this business was, like, so amazing, people are going to ask the question, like, Why did you leave? Honest answer. We constantly went for growth. Every year we went for growth, and it got to the point where I felt like I couldn't take it to the next level.

I'd done six years, worked really hard in that time, helped to push What's Next, What's Next, and it was always What's Next. And I had to just be really brutally honest. And it was me and the two directors, other two directors, we all handed our notice in on the same Zoom call. I love that.

Yeah, I know. I so wish I'd been on that call to see that. We'd actually been axe-throwing, the three of us, and decided that we were going to do it. Was there any alcohol involved?

No. Actually, that was before we'd even had a drink, and we were like, No, we're all really tired. But we all kind of said, like, we could have sat there and taken a really good wage, and we could have carried on, but it wouldn't have been the right thing for the agency. It wouldn't have been the right thing for the team.

They needed people to lead and push them. That's a brave move. But it felt right. Yeah.

It didn't in never feel like it was a silly move. It felt right. And there was something in me as well that leading people and that many people for so long, I needed to get back into doing the work because I was so far removed from doing the do. I was doing all the people stuff.

I was dealing with HR issues. It was the middle of COVID as well, so it was like 130 people working in different environments, managing that, changing in how they saw our culture. And I just thought, I want to do work again. I want to do the nice stuff again.

So yeah, it didn't feel scary. It just felt right. So what did life look like then after Social Chain? What was the next move?

I had met Gary Neville while I was at Social Chain because of my LinkedIn. It's so weird how things happen, isn't it? So built my LinkedIn. I'm nearly on 70,000 followers now, which is amazing.

I just picked it back up again, so hopefully that'll continue to grow. And Gary had got in touch through Skybet, which was a client of Social Chain, and obviously they work closely. Gary wanted to start his LinkedIn, so we had sat in my house on a Zoom call with Gary Neville and all of his team. I'm thinking, what is this going on?

Was Fozzy there as well? No, this was pre. Oh, pre-Fozzy. Was it pre-Foz?

Yeah, pre-Foz. Got this call, had the call, and then Gary said, Would Social Chain manage my LinkedIn, help me with my personal brand? And I said no. I said no because it wasn't the right business model for Social Chain.

It wasn't a way that we could make money out of it, and also we wouldn't have done a good job. And in doing that, I introduced him to someone else who's now still doing his personal brand with him. But I think me saying no and being honest with him, we kind of bonded a little bit over that. It's integrity, it's honesty, and people respect that, right?

Yeah, yeah. And I would never try and do something that we couldn't just because it's Gary Neville. Also, I'm an Oldham fan, so it didn't bother me at all. But we had a conversation, and he was saying they were struggling with growing the fan base at Salford City, and I've been going to watch Oldham since I was six years old with my dad.

And he said, Do you want to do a bit of a project, a consultancy project? And I just thought, yeah, this is going to give me that fire of doing the do again in an area that I'm actually really passionate about. So I did a project for him: how to grow their social, how to grow their marketing, and ways to live as a football club in a digital age. And I just loved the process.

I was presenting it. This was after I'd already handed my notice in. I was presenting it back to him, and he said, Why don't you just come and do this for a job? And it was actually my dad that sold it to me because I was talking to Dad and he just said, You're going to help kids have dreams like you did, going to Boundary Park when you were little.

Oh, that's just giving me chills. Yeah, I know. That is powerful. Yeah, I know, I know.

Yeah, and Gary could have said anything to me, but my dad sold that job to me. So, yeah, I did that. I did head up the Salford City team, media team, and also was on the overlap, which was just the best experience. That's Gary's YouTube channel.

Yeah, yeah. So Gary's obviously really well known as being on Sky Sports and things like that, but wanted his own media platform that he could own and have conversations. So, yeah, the Overlap was born and managed to help launch Stick to Football, which is the one where he's sat around the table with Roy and Gary, Jamie, Ian and Jill. Met David Beckham, got a hug.

Was that the highlight? It really was, yeah. Don't tell Gary that. I'm sure he's not going to be listening.

Hi, Gary. So, in terms of obviously social chain, I think another burning question people will have is like, what is Stephen like as a person and what is he like to work with? I mean, you shared some things yesterday which I just found fascinating about his inner psyche and personality and why he was so prevalent in being able to scale that business. I think there's something about vision-driven entrepreneurs.

They've all got a similar trait. Gary's very similar. They know the next thing before anyone else. It's like a weird, they just are knowing.

And Steve just pushed us constantly to move fast and to get stuff done, but in a direction that he knew was...

Going to be the next big thing. And I don't think I've experienced many people that have got that gift. You said he was quite science-driven, like he was really into the numbers and the data. Loves data.

So if you watch Steve and watch what they're doing, they'll do stuff. They'll test a lot until they get it right, and then they'll repeat that for a while, and then they'll test something else. He never settles. He'll constantly be testing.

And that's what I loved about it, because you knew that it was fun stuff, but really backed by an understanding of what was going to work. And for me, having gone from big agency networks where it was like trying to move an oil tanker to get anything done, make any change, going into a place there where you could make a change and it was happening the next day was just so fun, and it was great. And I think I've taken that into every business I've been into. I hate sitting and slowness now.

Can't cope with things being slow. I have to, like, get stuff done. And I think that's definitely from him. So obviously being very career-driven, being super successful, which obviously you struggled to connect with — haven't we all been there?

I don't know what you're talking about, Dawn. But we've all been there. You know, I think it was a really fascinating conversation we had this yesterday about having the disconnect of not embracing when people from the outside are seeing this super successful woman who is showing up, making changes, leading, you know, a groundbreaking agency. You didn't feel that.

And obviously, I've been through experiences where I did a lot from the age of 21. People would say it, and I never landed, I never felt it until I did some work on my values. I understood what motivated me because it wasn't money, it wasn't all of those things. It was more about enrichment and experiences.

What has changed in terms of the person you were then to understanding who you are now? Oh, everything. Everything. I have been through quite a journey with therapy, and I think I, before I went through that journey, I was making every decision based on what other people wanted.

Like my family background, my dad broke his back just before I was born and was in a plaster cast from under his armpit to the bottom of his back. And forever, like since when I was born till now, has really struggled with that. We've been through numerous operations, and my mum had quite a difficult time with her career. So I never really put myself...

I was the fixer. That's what I figured out through therapy. I was the one that wasn't going to cause trouble. I wasn't going to, like, be the centre of attention.

All my concerns were always around making sure everything was all right. So much so that every birthday, when I blew out the candles, I always wished that my dad's back would get better. It was never about me. It was always about that.

So, and that isn't even an exaggeration. That's the truth. From since I can remember doing birthday cakes, that's what I'd wish for. And I think that's just what I've been conditioned, and the way that I've just lived my life is based on what everyone else needs from me, not what I actually need.

And I don't know what changed. I think my personal life and my relationships have just been so bad. It's been awful that I decided that I needed to do something because I couldn't keep doing the same. I couldn't keep feeling the heartbreak every time.

So I think I stopped, took a step back, started thinking about what I wanted and what I needed, and that people pleaser now is still there, but it's fading away. And that's when I did my work on my own values, and it was that that made me realise that a lot of my decisions have been based on my values. I just didn't realise it. And now I can actually move in a way, and I can turn up in relationships, and I can put boundaries in based on me and my values.

And that is something I'm really passionate about sharing with the world as well now because I just don't think it's really talked about that much or how to find them. I think this is it, and I think there's also pressure, like being in the corporate and the online space, you know, this whole kind of... I suppose outside looking in, what they see versus reality. And I think, you know, what is improving is we're talking about things more as female entrepreneurs.

Do you think that being so focused on your career took a toll on your personal life? Do you think that you were more focused on career than looking at what you actually really wanted? I think my career has always been a flow, so I've never really had to try. Not, I work hard, don't get me wrong, but it's not been a conscious effort to be like, right, I'm going to be MD.

It's evolved. It's evolved. Whereas I feel like my personal life has been a slog. I'm not pail bloody battle, yeah.

I mean, we've all been there, right? And I think the thing is, it still is. Try dating in your forties, honestly, it's horrible. Have you done the online?

Yeah, I'm on Raya. I don't like, I just don't like it. It's weird. I think back, I mean, I've been in a relationship for like 12 years, but even back then, because I was like, you know, 30s, I ended up meeting my partner on a trampoline through friends' barbecue and then proceeded to maybe have a few drinks, and it evolved from there.

But I can't imagine, like, the online dating thing. And, you know, for me it was like you'd go to bars, you would meet people in real life. It's a whole different spectrum. And I sound ancient now to anyone who's listening in their twenties, but it's daunting.

So how do you even navigate that? I mean, I'd like some help. You don't really. No one talks to each other anymore when you're out.

You don't. It's not the same. The connections aren't the same. And then even online, it's a real struggle to try and build meaningful connections because it's so easy just to go to the next person if someone doesn't give you what you want in that instant.

So that's why I'm not really on online dating, because I felt like it was ruining my own self-esteem. It's very transient, isn't it? It's very fickle. Yeah, it is.

And it makes you think you're not good enough because someone can quickly just ghost you because they're talking to someone else. And they're having conversations they're having. I know. I mean, there could be like 900.

And then I always think about, what's that program, the MTV Catfish? Oh God. I always think about that and think, is that who you're really speaking to? And the thing is, is we've been bred now to have this distrust.

And whereas it did seem a lot simpler, like you would swap a number and like you'd meet up, now there's a lot more kind of moving parts that go with it. So what do you see for you then, like in the next sort of, you know, between now and next year, what's going to be the big pivotal changes in life and business? In life, I want to, I think I've been so focused on hitting targets and doing things to get a company to where it needs to be that I want to now spend the time on hitting my own targets, personal targets. Honestly, brutal honesty, finding someone to share that with is part of my plan.

Like I want a partner. I want to be with someone that I can celebrate my successes with and enjoy life. I've got Fozzy, but— Well, he'll have to approve as well and make sure. Fozzy needs a dad.

Yeah, but he'll need to make sure he's fully vetted. Yeah, 100%. But not putting so much pressure on myself that I settle either. I think it's very important for me now that I'm of an age where I don't have to settle and I can make the right choices for me.

So I want to put some time, like conscious time into that, and then also really just do work that brings me joy. With my own coach, just when things were changing and I was deciding to go into being on my own and being a consultant, he said to me, You're now at a point where you can just choose businesses to work with where you're going to have fun. That's a whole revelation, isn't it? When you're just thinking about that and it landing, it's like, yeah, now is my time.

Now is the shift. Have you experienced much in terms of judgment, in terms of societal guidelines, in terms of ages, what we should be doing, marriages, babies, all of that jazz? I don't know if I've had it on me, but I've given it to myself. So I'm still—I'm really fortunate that I'm really close with my friends that I went to school with, and there's a group of four of us.

They're all married with kids, and they all did it around the same time, and I still was, like, flapping around, messing about, trying to figure out what I wanted and who I was. And at that time, I remember feeling so lonely because they were all off having babies, and they were all off on a Monday, so they could all do something together, and I wasn't there because I was in work. And I think in my twenties and thirties, middle thirties probably, I really struggled with that, and I struggled with not having what everyone else—what you should have. And turning forty now and not having kids, it does play on your mind.

It does. That clock is very real. But I also don't know if I'm right to be a mum or if I want to be a mum. It's really honest to open up to that because I think a lot of people just assume that it is like that's the natural cycle.

For me, I chose not to have children, and I get asked a lot, you know, I've been with my partner a long time, not married, just never had the desire. And again, with children, I just, again, it wasn't something that I was passionate about. And I think people struggle to understand that in reverse because society has conditioned us. And I think it is tough.

We put these timelines on ourselves. We put these societal pressures on ourselves, even if no one else is. So we have the right to choose. And I think the thing is, it's a bit like your career.

You talk about it evolves. I feel like that's what life is. We don't know what's going to happen. You really don't.

And I also, the thing, the realization I've come to is everybody wants what everyone else has got. So no matter what.

I could look at my friends with kids and their husbands and think, I want that. They're looking at me living my life, doing all these exciting things. Sitting on a private island. Sitting on a private island doing a podcast with you on a Wednesday.

Exactly. And that's something that they will want. So I've just learned to be very great. Gratitude is a massive thing, and I'm so grateful for what I've created and the life that I've made.

And Fozzy is a big part of that, to be fair. He helps fill that sort of nurturing void that I might have, because he's just a little angel baby. Well, I can relate to that. Paddy and Murphy are my little babies.

I clearly birthed those, and, you know, in all seriousness, I think one of the funniest messages that you sent when we were preparing to come to the island, it was like, when you're playing it out and you read it back. As a business owner, you think about the life and you're talking about having fun. And I sent you a message. I was like, right, so just be on the jetty, I'll pick you up on the speedboat.

And you were like, yeah, this is the life I should be having. And I think the thing is, is that when we think about the infinite possibilities and having the fun, like, what does that look like for Katie? I mean, clearly the private island has been an amazing, amazing time for me getting to know you and also for you meeting, you know, the rest of my network. But what do you want to be doing?

Like, what is fun for Katie? Oh, I don't know. I just love life. I just love being silly, and I love spending time with my friends and just going rogue every now and again.

Like, I just want to do fun. For me, it's memories. Memories over— I'm always memories over money. I'm not very— I love nice things, do not get me wrong, and I spend far too much money on clothes and bags, but I'm all about memories.

And a lot of it now is about spending that with my parents as well. I try every year to go away with them and have time, so I've got those memories with them. I love that. I love that, because the thing is, is yesterday I shared, whether it's an uplifting fact or depressing, I don't know, but we have around 4,000 weeks in our existence.

And when we bring our conscious mind to this, because 95% of what we do is not in our control every day because we're living in our subconscious. When we bring conscious action to it and we have that thought about family, they're not going to be here forever. We have to make every moment matter. What is the impact or legacy that you feel passionate about that you want to carve out in your life?

I feel like I have been on such a journey of leading a company that was such fast-paced growth and learning along the way of how to do things differently, how you can be a different manager, how you can be a different leader, that I would love to share that and help other people feel that they can do that as well. And my big passion at the moment... is the values piece, knowing what a difference it would have made to me as younger Katie. If I'd have known those values, would I be in a different position?

Would I have made different choices? And I think we're living in a world now, we've talked about it, comparison culture is massive. And I think what you see online is just, we know it's the highlights reel, but you can't help sit in there thinking, why, like, I want what they've got, or I should be there. And I think I'm really passionate about leaving a legacy that helps young people understand themselves better in order to make decisions that are right for them, not in order just to compare with everyone else.

Well, I always like to have a little bit of a giggle on the podcast, and I love the fact that every guest I have always shares a little bit of vulnerability, a bit of their authentic self, and I'm always sharing stories because honestly, I have the most embarrassing stories in life ever. What is the most embarrassing story you've heard in your entrepreneurial life or commercial life? Can't wait to hear this. God, there's loads because I'm such...

The one that's just, the one that's come to the front of my mind was it was when I was doing work experience. At the BBC on Watchdog. Oh my God. So I was doing, because at this point I thought I wanted to be a journalist because I loved Heat magazine, and I just wanted to— We all loved Heat magazine.

I just wanted to write about celebrities. That's all I wanted to do. I just wanted— I loved the depth, but I can't, I can't spell, and my grammar's terrible. But anyway, yeah, so for some reason I got work experience on Watchdog.

I don't know why I thought that would translate into a role at Heat magazine. Anyway, I was like 17, and we were just sat in this tiny little box room, these all these work experience people, and we were just opening the letters that people had sent in because it was all letter-based at that time. We opened one of the letters and this white powder came out, and we were like, Ugh, shit. So it was around the time when there were anthrax scares.

So we came out of this room and we're like, Um, excuse me, we found some powder, and the one— and we were like, Right, okay. Shut the whole of the BBC down. Everyone had to evacuate. We had to stay in the Watchdog building and the studio, and the man in the suit—we had the men in the suit come in.

Oh, the white— the hazmat, what are they called? Oh, the thingy suits, like the— Yeah, the, the— is it hazmat? Yeah, hazmat. One of them white space suits.

Oh my God. The space suits came in, literally, and I mean, when we had to close the BBC, it was that whole building. They tested it. It was printing powder from the comp slips.

Oh my God. Oh my God. See, I feel slightly better now because when I tell my stories, which I will share with you, there's a particularly worst one. Well, the worst one is the EasyJet story, but one of my stories was going into a really important meeting, and again, I was probably about similar ages as you on your work experience, and you know when you're kind of making a great sort of, like, entrance, first impression?

I'm going into a board meeting, so all men. I'm the only female. I'd just been promoted, so I had this beautiful white shirt on, black trousers, and as I went into the door, the meeting room had like one of these big kind of like fire exit handles on it, so which just as I walked in caught into the button of my shirt. So as I entered the office— I went in full bra, open shirt, no buttons.

And I'm not sure I will ever get past that. And do you know what? Even to this day, even to this day, when I walk into a room, I always naturally just go to the front, even if I haven't got buttons, because that embarrassment level, I mean, like, I feel like I'm blushing now even telling the story. It was bad.

So I think the thing is, is that, you know, like, if we can still do all right in life, you know, there's hope for everybody. Like, you know, literally every day. I've got friends that are like, How are you as successful as you are? Because you—how do you get by?

I don't know. I went to do a cold water dip just the day before we came here, and it was three rounds of cold water dips. Second round, the guy was like, Right, you can probably go in a little bit, because I was like this. He said, You can probably go in a little bit further.

So I tried it. There was two of us in this bath thing. Tried it, tried to go down, thought, I can't do it. Slipped.

I fell in, splashed the guy next to me who was, like, really struggling with the cold. I splashed him with cold water because I was, like, flailing around. And this is my life. Were you fully submerged?

Yeah, well, no, I went up to further than I definitely intended. But this is me. But this is it, and it's having the ability to laugh at yourself. And I think the thing in life, right, especially in business, when it gets tough, if you can't laugh at yourself, who can?

And I think this is what we need to understand on social media. When people go on there, We've been around for 20 years doing what we've been doing. It was not an overnight success. And the thing is, is we all still make mistakes every single day.

Anyone who watches my behind the scenes, you will know some of my stories are cringeworthy, but these are the things that make me me and make you you. So if there was one parting gift that you can leave our amazing listeners, what would be the one piece of advice that you would like to share? I think just be relentless in the pursuit of your own goals. Don't let other people stop you or put you off.

If you're passionate about something and you really want to do it, and you know what your goals are, and you've got that urgency inside you and there's a drive that are coming from your values, then go for it. So what are your values? If you had to say three key values, what would they be? Mine, I've got four.

I've got learning, which has been every decision I've made in career. So every time I've changed, it's because I wanted to learn something new, which I didn't know until I did my values work. Care, which is actually what makes me a really good leader and the thing that makes me not the man in a grey suit. Achievement, as a daughter of two teachers, it's not a surprise really that I need to achieve.

And then fun. Definitely, I'm with you on that one. Now, I think we're quite aligned in the values, and I think the exercise you did with us on the event was really interesting because I love the fact that we start to attach actions to values, and that's when it starts to get interesting. So if people want to know more about Katie and her amazing journey, where is the best place to come and connect?

LinkedIn, Instagram, the website. I've also got a mailing list, so you can go on, it's just katieleeson.co.uk, and then my socials are all just @katieleeson, so it's fairly easy.

Oh, well, thank you so much. It's been a blast, and thank you for spending time on the private island. It's been amazing, and I'm sure we'll be back. Thanks for listening to Dawn of a New Era, the podcast brought to you in association with the Her Power Community.

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